Cruiser Command

Cruiser command is a cooperative map between two teams. Simply put, each team controls one battlecruiser and the goal is to kill the opponent's battlecruiser.


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 Post subject: Re: The Racist Shields Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 11:20 am 
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Puppetbones wrote:
My first reaction is that this adds more complexity and shear mechanic count to the game that might not be necessary. If more mechanics are implemented I would probably like to see others removed.

Another thing I would like to point out is that, depending on how it would work, it might not scale down very well to smaller games where during BC battles there may not be someone on power the whole time.
Then perhaps if the mechanics were kept to be a little simpler, we could avoid that issue of 'extra complexity'?
... I don't know. I feel like of all things, adding 'defensive options' to power may make it more complex, but conversely, gives it a little more depth within combat. While balancing shields, engines, and weapon capacity can arguably be sufficient, it doesn't have as much in ways of interacting with the opposing team. And that's why I believe this could be a nice step in that direction.

As for it not scaling well down very well, well... I think that generally applies to everything. The primary situation where I truly see this becoming an issue is in 1v1 games, but that's already a giant mess. It's absolutely no more an issue than it was before, so I'd call that one a non-factor.


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 Post subject: Re: The Racist Shields Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 7:40 pm 
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I think I would be happy with a more visible effect on iron curtain first - if it was so easy to change the shield color, can't we just make that one red or something? and work from there - not a permanent shield, and no silly mechanics like every 500 damage or 2500 damage shock-wave, but better vs kinetics, no bleed-through, extends to nearby allied ships in small range, etc. would be useful - also not sure of having more stuff added to power, I think science would be a better place for it.

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 Post subject: Re: The Racist Shields Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:56 am 
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whytedragon wrote:
Then perhaps if the mechanics were kept to be a little simpler, we could avoid that issue of 'extra complexity'?


Fair enough. Regardless, new small ship items and long range science buffs where added while I was inactive...and I have not seen any of them used once. Perhaps that would be something to remove for the sake of less complexity?

Slapshot wrote:
also not sure of having more stuff added to power, I think science would be a better place for it.


I disagree. It has to do with shields so power makes more sense. As long as the controls are set up to be very simple, like an on/off switch, and not require spamming like raising and lowering numbers by increments, I think power is the place to put it.


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 Post subject: Re: The Racist Shields Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 1:25 pm 
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slapshot wrote:
I think I would be happy with a more visible effect on iron curtain first - if it was so easy to change the shield color, can't we just make that one red or something? and work from there - not a permanent shield, and no silly mechanics like every 500 damage or 2500 damage shock-wave, but better vs kinetics, no bleed-through, extends to nearby allied ships in small range, etc. would be useful - also not sure of having more stuff added to power, I think science would be a better place for it.


Ew, Racism isnt useful, its rather over the top, so the racism against native americans and black people stays >.O

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 Post subject: Re: The Racist Shields Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:16 am 
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Alright so we hardly have any (serious) suggestions on shield types and how it would work (mechanics, UI), so I'm gonna lay down some ideas and food for thought. (and I'm stealing some ideas from others)

Shields types:

We could perhaps make a set shields that directly counter certain weapon types by reducing amount of damage dealt by that certain weapon type, like:
- A shield that reduces BC laser damage
- A shield that reduces kinetic damage (including bleedthrough)
- A shield that reduces missile and yamato damage
- A shield that reduces small ship weapon damage

Or we could have a set of shields such that each one has a perk, like:
- A shield that extends shields to nearby allied small ships
- A shield that has no bleedthrough (both bleedthrough due to shield low HP and bleedthrough from kinetics)
- A shield that converts a small amount of incoming damage to energy (unless the damage is done by asteroids)

Or we could even have a set of shield extensions via an active ability that buffs shields, but also does friendly damage, like:
- A shield that, while activated, increases resistance by X amount at a cost of X :y: / X :b: per second (auto deactivates if there is no :y: or :b: )
- A shield that, while activated, increases shield resistance by X amount at a cost of X core stability per second
(a set like this could probably replace shield boost)


I personally like the first set the best because its straightforward and adds more scouting/countering to the game.

And now mechanics/UI:

Perhaps there could be an activate/deactivate switch in the power console, and it could be set up to only allow one shield type to be researched, like tiers. However, unlike tiers, perhaps you could still research a different one, which would unresearch the current one. And of course you could go back to your first one by researching it again. Thus making it so you can switch, but switching has both a time and resource cost.

How it could be included in the upgrades console:
Currently the BC upgrades menu is completely full, so perhaps make energy transfers have a submenu, freeing up 2 slots. Shield types could have a submenu too.


Just trying to get suggestions rolling...


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 Post subject: Re: The Racist Shields Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:04 pm 
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Puppetbones wrote:
I disagree. It has to do with shields so power makes more sense. As long as the controls are set up to be very simple, like an on/off switch, and not require spamming like raising and lowering numbers by increments, I think power is the place to put it.


in that case move iron curtain over to power console first

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 Post subject: Re: The Racist Shields Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:21 pm 
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slapshot wrote:
Puppetbones wrote:
I disagree. It has to do with shields so power makes more sense. As long as the controls are set up to be very simple, like an on/off switch, and not require spamming like raising and lowering numbers by increments, I think power is the place to put it.


in that case move iron curtain over to power console first


Why...? the AI uses Iron Curtain

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 Post subject: Re: The Racist Shields Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 1:05 pm 
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... I also kind of agree with everyone else that perhaps Science may be a better place for it if we do aim for it. And there's a couple of reasons for this;

1) Lack of science console relevance in combat. This would ameliorate that issue.
2) Power console is more more about 'managing numbers.' Core output, shield values, engine values, weapon values, and the capacitors -- 'types' doesn't fit very well into this sort of thematic.
3) Science console very often revolves around the theme of giving very 'particular' bonuses. This makes it a fairly ideal place for a 'shield type changer.'
4) This would create interactivity between consoles. By example, weapons/navigation have to work together to an extent to launch missiles. Science has to load the yamato cannon for navigation. Science purges the core for power. Power gives weapon capacitor energy. Power routes energy to navigation for their throttle. Shoudn't following along this sort of trend be encouraged?

Moreover--
Puppetbones wrote:
Shields types:

We could perhaps make a set shields that directly counter certain weapon types by reducing amount of damage dealt by that certain weapon type, like:
- A shield that reduces BC laser damage
- A shield that reduces kinetic damage (including bleedthrough)
- A shield that reduces missile and yamato damage
- A shield that reduces small ship weapon damage

Or we could have a set of shields such that each one has a perk, like:
- A shield that extends shields to nearby allied small ships
- A shield that has no bleedthrough (both bleedthrough due to shield low HP and bleedthrough from kinetics)
- A shield that converts a small amount of incoming damage to energy (unless the damage is done by asteroids)
The first thing about section one that worries me about these suggestions is that although they work, all that basically comes from it is numbers. The second section goes about a more creative way of implementing it. Going off that sort of style of upgrade, compared to the first when you have upgrades such as...
-A shield that has a harder to pierce bleedthrough value.
-A shield that innately reduces all damage sources by X.
-A shield that has an super easy to pierce bleedthrough value, but that more effectively absorbs shield damage.
... you can still see that there are counters in a sense. The first is a kinetics counter. The second is good for dealing with small ship harass since they (effectively) have lower damage values than the battlecruiser following upgrades. The second is good for dealing with lasers since, while it leaks to hull, it's very energy effective for dealing with it.

But ultimately, they become less 'one dimensional.' Rather than just becoming 'more effective,' you add a little more depth that may not necessarily be apparent on the surface.

I.E. the second one actually has high early game potential, and still can be considered effective against things like wraiths, corvettes, and even still be useful against BC lasers to an extent, but has clear weaknesses against things like Broadsides, Missiles, and Destroyers.

It relies on the interaction with various game concepts in order to become more deep. The concepts are simple -- reduce by X -- but has the potential to be so much more.

I just feel like 'extra numbers' doesn't contribute in the way we should be looking for. If possible, I would actually much prefer to see all 'number' upgrades limited as much as possible as it creates an awkward dynamic that relies less upon skill and more upon 'having better values.' And while having them to an extent isn't bad, I just feel like they could be so much more.

... but that's something for another day.

Puppetbones wrote:
Or we could even have a set of shield extensions via an active ability that buffs shields, but also does friendly damage, like:
- A shield that, while activated, increases resistance by X amount at a cost of X :y: / X :b: per second (auto deactivates if there is no :y: or :b: )
- A shield that, while activated, increases shield resistance by X amount at a cost of X core stability per second
(a set like this could probably replace shield boost)
Would prefer to avoid this since it's ultimately coming back to entirely a numbers game.

Puppetbones wrote:
I personally like the first set the best because its straightforward and adds more scouting/countering to the game.
Same issue as above -- just numbers. And I don't see how it leads to any more sense of 'scouting/countering' than the secondary style of 'effect based countering' rather than 'number based countering.'

Puppetbones wrote:
Perhaps there could be an activate/deactivate switch in the power console, and it could be set up to only allow one shield type to be researched, like tiers. However, unlike tiers, perhaps you could still research a different one, which would unresearch the current one. And of course you could go back to your first one by researching it again. Thus making it so you can switch, but switching has both a time and resource cost.

How it could be included in the upgrades console:
Currently the BC upgrades menu is completely full, so perhaps make energy transfers have a submenu, freeing up 2 slots. Shield types could have a submenu too.


Just trying to get suggestions rolling...
Okay, so to take these one at a time;

Honestly, not 100% sure on how to handle switching. However, I'm fairly certain I don't like the idea of switching through upgrading. And there are a few reasons for that;
1) Another console that then effectively needs to be manned in combat. This sounds frustrating.
2) Creating a situation where you have to re-buy the shields means you reinforce 'resource stockpile syndrome,' where nobody wants to end the game because they feel like they need to be super prepared resource wise. It reinforces the necessity to overcome skill potential with economy stockpiling.
3) It goes against the existing upgrades thematic of 'lock and get.' Feels weird that you'd put a consumable on upgrades rather than, say, construction.

There were a couple of ideas when this was discussed in skype, but frankly speaking I actually am favoring the idea of 'shield boost types' being the actual method of switching, and having all of these shield boost types sharing the same cooldown timer.
I.E. If you had a red, blue, and black shield, and you wanted to switch to red from blue, you'd have to do a red shield boost. All three shield boosts would then be on cooldown for X time.

Of course, following this logic would also require Shield Boost to be put onto Science Console.
... honestly, I would actually be pretty okay with that, considering things like Yamato/Core Purge are already there.

As for how to handle the upgrades, another possibility would also be to simply shove hardened shields and the shield upgrades into the Weapons submenu and simply call that something like 'Combat Upgrades.' I know Siretu seems to hate submenus, so limiting them is probably a more favorable option.

... and I know this effectively means 'oh, have to have another person on the BC to operate it,' but in a sense I also disagree. Depending on how these are handled, I can easily see this become more about options of how to distribute your work force. I.E., can you honestly say what's more effective between utilizing a destroyer or shield boost? And moreover, it holds to the style of Science not requiring constant attention. Means you could do your shield boost, switch off, repair, load missiles, upgrade... because it doesn't require constant maintenance, it's a lot more forgivable.


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 Post subject: Re: The Racist Shields Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 11:59 am 
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Dreadnought wrote:
slapshot wrote:
Puppetbones wrote:
I disagree. It has to do with shields so power makes more sense. As long as the controls are set up to be very simple, like an on/off switch, and not require spamming like raising and lowering numbers by increments, I think power is the place to put it.


in that case move iron curtain over to power console first


Why...? the AI uses Iron Curtain


Why are you asking me? I would prefer it be on science, but according to Puppet (whom you quoted), it supposedly "makes more sense" at power, since it has to do with shields

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 Post subject: Re: The Racist Shields Thread
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 2:58 am 
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@WhyteDragon:
WhyteDragon wrote:
Puppetbones wrote:
I personally like the first set the best because its straightforward and adds more scouting/countering to the game.

Same issue as above -- just numbers. And I don't see how it leads to any more sense of 'scouting/countering' than the secondary style of 'effect based countering' rather than 'number based countering.'


I wasn't saying that this adds more scouting/countering than the other sets, just that it offers more scouting/countering than the current version of the game.

Also, I'm with you on what you said about it just being countering based on numbers, but, looking at this from a new player's perspective the extra perks like extending shields to nearby small ships might be confusing - "Why did I have a shield earlier and suddenly I don't anymore?" , "How did that ship get a shield as I was about to kill it?" , "Why did I have a shield last game near the BC but not this time?" , etc. The second set adds more depth, but the first is more straightforward to new players. And keeping new players in CC is our biggest problem. I suppose as long as the mechanics are simple the second set would still be nearly as straightforward as the first.

-----------------------------------------
@Slapshot:

In response to the following discussion:
Slapshot wrote:
Why are you asking me? I would prefer it be on science, but according to Puppet (whom you quoted), it supposedly "makes more sense" at power, since it has to do with shields

Though putting Iron Curtain and Purging on power would be more intuitive, the AI would no longer be able to use them. I thought, depending on how the mechanics are for the new shields, that the new shields should be on power too, but if AI can use it then it should definitely be on Science.


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