Cruiser Command

Cruiser command is a cooperative map between two teams. Simply put, each team controls one battlecruiser and the goal is to kill the opponent's battlecruiser.


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 Post subject: Weapons Console - Hull/Shield Damage Control
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:26 pm 
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This was briefly touched upon in Skype.

A while back there was an idea set forth about a sort of 'frequency' tracker battle between Power and Weapons Consoles to try and optimize damage output. What I wanted to propose was something that followed that same general scheme, but didn't require as much extra effort to implement by utilizing concepts that already existed in the game. The change would be as follows;

Weapon Console New Abilities:
  • Electron Charge - Increases the shield damage dealt by Battlecruiser lasers by one while decreasing the hull damage dealt by one, to a maximum of 0/24.
  • Proton Charge - Increases the hull damage dealt by Battlecruiser lasers by one while decreasing the shield damage dealt by one, to a maximum of 24/0.
This would create a balance between Shield and Hull tanking, ideally tanking hull focused shots with shields and shield focused shots with hull. The option of sticking to a 12/12 split would still exist, and would essentially follow the already existing setup. However, altering the charges would essentially creates a 'balancing act' for the weapons console to try and outwit the power manager.

Was a hastily made concept -- thoughts on it would be appreciated.


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 Post subject: Re: Weapons Console - Hull/Shield Damage Control
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:19 pm 
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You would end up with either one extreme or the other.

Full hull damage against small ships, buffing the weapons console vs them.
Full shield damage against shields for a battlecruiser. Even with the bug of 0.1 reduced regeneration, just keep it vs shields so that they stay down so damage from ~~other sources will take down hull, while the lasers keep the shields down so that the bleed-through damage %% is significant for other damage sources (not to mention every projectile, even if it does no hull damage, will cause debris and fire)

-Also, whats the point? its kind of a high level thing, you have to understand cruiser command very well to really understand how to use the charges properly.

~~Let me impose a new suggestion, and play on the audience (Siretu, he is kind of obsessed with bebuffs lately)

-Electron Charge - It will apply to a debuff the enemy for 15 seconds. increases damage taken by shields by 20%
-Proton Charge - Applies debuff to the enemy for 15 seconds. increases damage to hull by 20% and raises stress on shields by 20%
-Cooldowns will be 30 seconds, if one ability is cast, it will start the cooldown for the other ability, (so that you cant cast both at once, pick and choose my friends)

This will be much more simple that even drones or new guys could use properly yet still has a degree of decision and adds more versatility to that console

-New vocabulary guys: When shields are below 30% and bleedthrough damage starts going through, that means the shields are overwhelmed. Increasing stress by -20% will raise the default 30% to 50% (and subsequently reducing stress by 20% will be 30% to 10% ))
-instant cast abilities (no projectile, though I GUESS we could add one...)
-It will need to be visibly shown that the enemy has a debuff, similar to buffs like iron curtain or shield boost (maybe have a blue and/or halo above the ship or battlecruiser.
-Question, will that debuff apply for ALL incoming damage? or just the lasers and/or kinetics from the weapons console? O.o Recommend: Everything. Its a team game, coordinate with your team on what debuff you will apply to the enemy battlecruiser, and they will respond appropriately.

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 Post subject: Re: Weapons Console - Hull/Shield Damage Control
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:30 am 
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Dreadnought wrote:
-Also, whats the point? its kind of a high level thing, you have to understand cruiser command very well to really understand how to use the charges properly.


you missed the point about it being somewhat similar to power, as in having to balance something - since power is something that is hard to get right at first, as there really isn't much else similar to it at all

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 Post subject: Re: Weapons Console - Hull/Shield Damage Control
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:40 am 
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slapshot wrote:
Dreadnought wrote:
-Also, whats the point? its kind of a high level thing, you have to understand cruiser command very well to really understand how to use the charges properly.


you missed the point about it being somewhat similar to power, as in having to balance something - since power is something that is hard to get right at first, as there really isn't much else similar to it at all

Ok maybe i did, but can you argue any other points? =P

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 Post subject: Re: Weapons Console - Hull/Shield Damage Control
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:24 am 
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Dreadnought wrote:
You would end up with either one extreme or the other.

Full hull damage against small ships, buffing the weapons console vs them.
Full shield damage against shields for a battlecruiser. Even with the bug of 0.1 reduced regeneration, just keep it vs shields so that they stay down so damage from ~~other sources will take down hull, while the lasers keep the shields down so that the bleed-through damage %% is significant for other damage sources (not to mention every projectile, even if it does no hull damage, will cause debris and fire)

-Also, whats the point? its kind of a high level thing, you have to understand cruiser command very well to really understand how to use the charges properly.

Okay. You use max shield shield damage against the enemy battlecruiser.
Your total hull damage dealt to the enemy battlecruiser: 0.
Inevitably you run out of energy and consequentially don't really do anything.
... your plan falls flat in that the point is that even if you're dealing absurd shield damage, you won't do anything to the battlecruiser's hull. Moreover, if you suddenly decide after doing a big hull wipe that you want to start switching back to hull damage, there's suddenly a shield boost on the rise to help prevent that.
I don't think you understand the exact balance at stake. Though I will admit it makes the BC a lot more threatening against unshielded small ships.

Dreadnought wrote:
~~Let me impose a new suggestion, and play on the audience (Siretu, he is kind of obsessed with bebuffs lately)

-Electron Charge - It will apply to a debuff the enemy for 15 seconds. increases damage taken by shields by 20%
-Proton Charge - Applies debuff to the enemy for 15 seconds. increases damage to hull by 20% and raises stress on shields by 20%
-Cooldowns will be 30 seconds, if one ability is cast, it will start the cooldown for the other ability, (so that you cant cast both at once, pick and choose my friends)

This will be much more simple that even drones or new guys could use properly yet still has a degree of decision and adds more versatility to that console

The point of the whole frequency concept Siretu originally wanted was to add a bit more depth to the weapons console -- make it more interesting. I don't really feel as if what you're suggesting does anything close to that even. Raise shield damage for 15 seconds and then... do exactly what you were already doing before. Nothing much really changes.

The levels of thinking are different. The frequency idea wants to add a higher thought process to weapon, the concept is to create a balancing act through the 0-30% bleedthrough range for optimal hull damage. Moreover, it also makes the power console have to think a bit more beyond 'raise shields as high as possible!' The buff idea you're proposing just wants to add 'more stuff' without too much concern as to what its doing or why. For the most part, it would 'just be there.'


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 Post subject: Re: Weapons Console - Hull/Shield Damage Control
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 1:17 pm 
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For the record Whyte, Dreadnought's argument was that max shield damage lasers will keep the shields down while you kill them from other sources (missiles, yamato, small ships, broadside (are they affected by this frequency control thing?))

However, I think for you to effectively kill someone with other sources, you'll have to really tech towards that, which makes it a legit strategy, not a simple solution in all battles.

Also, it's worth noting that with no hull damage, you wont create any debris. Although with one hull damage, you will, although the chance will be lower than if you have higher hull damage.

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 Post subject: Re: Weapons Console - Hull/Shield Damage Control
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 2:28 pm 
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Pardon, I did misunderstand that.

But I still do think it would be an inefficient method, simply because of how bleedthrough works. Expending all of your damage into shields when you're closing in on 80%+ bleedthrough is simply outright wasteful. For the effective damage to shields you'd be doing, it would be ridiculous.

Lets just say that you're managing to keep the shields down to 80% bleedthrough with full shield output at X regeneration. This also effectively means that 20% of your shield damage output is equal to their regeneration.

At a stabilized bleedthrough X, the enemy battlecruiser's regeneration will be equal to 100-X% of your maximum potential damage output.
We can therefore establish that, so long as the effective new split allocates at minimum X% output to shields, a new equilibrium bleedthrough B utilizing Y% damage being allocated to hull will be established at at B = (100-(X/Y)). Furthermore, we can establish that the effective Hull Damage dealt will therefore be W = Y*B, or W = Y*(100-(X/Y))%.

Assume stable bleedthrough X = 60% at maximum shield damage output.
10/90 split: 33% effective bleedthrough, meaning 3.3% total damage output to hull.
20/80 split: 25% effective bleedthrough, meaning 5% total damage output to hull.
30/70 split: 14% effective bleedthrough, meaning 4.2% total damage output to hull.

Throw other ships into the equation for a second. This means that your effective shield damage output is, overall, less than before. By consequence, the effect of shifting your shield damage output into hull damage output will have a smaller effect on the total shield damage dealt, but a higher impact on the hull damage dealt due since there is already 'existing' damage going through. However, in reality, all you're doing is changing the total hull and shield damage output effectively being applied, and based upon the above argument it's already been established that you can create superior balance points than outright extremes already and, therefore, that there is still worth in utilizing non-absolute values for your damage output.

And all of this ignores the usage of shield boost which even furthers the effective balancing act.

As I said in Skype, I do think this could effectively require a boost to the battlecruiser hull. I already know people have been talking about adding some for other reasons, but adding this sort of flexibility in damage manipulation would mean a lot more effective hull damage being dealt as a whole since it can be optimized at particular points.

I will agree that doing 'full on shield damage' before the bleedthrough effect would be most effective.

I entirely disagree that it would always be the most effective solution to leave the battlecruiser weapons console on.


Last edited by WhyteDragon on Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:50 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Weapons Console - Hull/Shield Damage Control
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 2:57 pm 
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The other issues still remain.
1) It makes lasers even more dangerous against small ships, they are already considerably powerful vs small ships (I think i made a thread on it)
2) It doesn't advocate teamwork. Really it just focuses on the weapons, a captain might call for a weapons guy to change his output, but its quite easy for a skilled weapons guy to call his own shots. With my suggestion, its a decision that effects the entire team, and it only lasts 15 seconds, with a cooldown of 35 seconds, and you cant have both at once, one or the other (PUSH THE DAMAGE, USE HULL DEBUFF WEAPONS BOY!)
3) The utility of it, youl have to create UI for the weapons console to show the X/X damage of weapons, also will it remain the same when you get off or reset to normal 12/12(+upgrades)? If it doesnt reset, will have to have to program the drone to revert back to 12/12 and its kinda impossible for a drone to properly use these abilities, while my suggestion is quite easy to do. Also, it only changes the settings by 1, it could be end up being like power where it takes forever to change, while that makes sense its quite annoying, especially when you also have to spam lasers, which would get in the way of spamming lasers, or near instantly which isnt as precise.
4) Drones cant really use it (unless there is some incredible solution on how they perceive threat). and its less straightforward for new players. For my abilities its quite simple and straightforward for new guys hopping on "Oh debuff shields or hull, cool." and "Oh...erm alternate damage?...am i doing it right?".

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One day a wise man introduced me to this game. "It shall protect your virginity, my lad" he said.

Dont touch me you filthy casual.


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 Post subject: Re: Weapons Console - Hull/Shield Damage Control
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:07 pm 
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applying buff and applying debuff is anything but interesting. it feels like a very cheap and mundane solution.

Now for whyte's idea... I still need to read and reread.

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 Post subject: Re: Weapons Console - Hull/Shield Damage Control
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:08 pm 
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Dreadnought wrote:
The other issues still remain.
1) It makes lasers even more dangerous against small ships, they are already considerably powerful vs small ships (I think i made a thread on it)
That is a fair point, and it would mean it would require tweaks -- or, alternative, requiring upgrades to unlock 'min/maxing' it.
Dreadnought wrote:
2) It doesn't advocate teamwork. Really it just focuses on the weapons, a captain might call for a weapons guy to change his output, but its quite easy for a skilled weapons guy to call his own shots. With my suggestion, its a decision that effects the entire team, and it only lasts 15 seconds, with a cooldown of 35 seconds, and you cant have both at once, one or the other (PUSH THE DAMAGE, USE HULL DEBUFF WEAPONS BOY!)

Firing a wraith weapon doesn't require 'teamwork' to do, but I don't see you poking at that.
In reality, neither does tossing a buff on a target.
The point of this suggestion isn't to make everything require more teamwork, it's to make everything require more skill. If you want firing a weapon to require teamwork, make it so you have a press a button on navigation before the weapons console can fire a shot.
It won't be fun, but it will be 'teamwork' as you seem to be pressing for it to be able to perform basic functions.
Dreadnought wrote:
3) The utility of it, youl have to create UI for the weapons console to show the X/X damage of weapons, also will it remain the same when you get off or reset to normal 12/12(+upgrades)? If it doesnt reset, will have to have to program the drone to revert back to 12/12 and its kinda impossible for a drone to properly use these abilities, while my suggestion is quite easy to do. Also, it only changes the settings by 1, it could be end up being like power where it takes forever to change, while that makes sense its quite annoying, especially when you also have to spam lasers, which would get in the way of spamming lasers, or near instantly which isnt as precise.

UI required for the weapons console: add two buttons to the command card which act as passives. They display their respective number for hull and shield output.
Done.
As for taking 'forever to change,' you're comparing an effective potential shift of over 100 shifts to a maximum of 24. You're exaggerating.
Dreadnought wrote:
4) Drones cant really use it (unless there is some incredible solution on how they perceive threat). and its less straightforward for new players. For my abilities its quite simple and straightforward for new guys hopping on "Oh debuff shields or hull, cool." and "Oh...erm alternate damage?...am i doing it right?".

As for the drones... then either have the weapons drone stick with 12/12 or program in a basic program for it to detect the current shielding value of its selected target and choose its damage output based on that. Simple.
12/12 is still an option. It's not the optimal option, but it's still a viable choice. I don't think there's anything wrong with making the console a little more complex.
Sure, it's not watered down, but that makes it taste better.


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