Cruiser Command

Cruiser command is a cooperative map between two teams. Simply put, each team controls one battlecruiser and the goal is to kill the opponent's battlecruiser.


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 Post subject: Unfinishable Late Game
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 11:42 pm 
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This is an issue that has been simmering for since the hardened shield upgrade was fixed, and it's something that needs a discussion.

Late game is impossible to finish at high level play. If you're winning, you can deny your opponent resources indefinitely. If you're losing, you can evade and repair indefinitely. The result is games that are decided 20 minutes in, but the next 50 minutes after are hide & seek trying to end the game (or until one team gets tired and quits).

From the winning team's perspective, your opponent won't engage you, because you will just crush them with your superior whatever. They will always run away with their shields down, meaning you will run out of power before you can catch them. Small ships won't help, the BC is the fastest ship in the game (and they'll get crushed by the tractor beam). Weapons/missiles/yamato won't help, they can shield boost to absorb it and iron curtain on top of that. Infiltration won't help, good luck fighting a 1v4. Predator missiles don't help, your opponents will clear them in, on average, 20-30 seconds. Basically, your options are to run them down until they make a mistake (which is rare in high level play), or give up.

From the losing team's perspective, you have no chance in a straight up fight, so you evade while your miners try to even the odds. Depending on how far into the game it is, the asteroid fields might be used up, meaning mining becomes a crapshoot (at least the AI miner doesn't get bored). You can try chomping if your opponents are low on power, but it's safer to just run and have the miners do it all. You'll never get the resources you need to fully come back though, because your opponents can deny you the green spawn indefinitely. Your hope is that your opponents make a mistake on a mineral spawn (rare in high level play), at which point you become the winning team and your opponents becoming the losing team, at which point, see above.

Neither of these perspectives are fun to be in.

Quite simply, there needs to be a way to force a late game losing team to fight, and there needs to be a way to allow a late game losing team to come back, both of which don't rely on people making mistakes. Preferrably multiple ways.

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 Post subject: Re: Unfinishable Late Game
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 11:54 pm 
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BC should be a slow lumbering thing that only in emergency situations would it get this crasy amount of speed hence "boost", i dont like it but i think we should put a cap on engines to about say...150 and be more generous with the speed upgrades for BC, also we should get a missile that will cut engines and boost for a few seconds like the wraiths EMP

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 Post subject: Re: Unfinishable Late Game
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 2:13 am 
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Red-Rocket wrote:
BC should be a slow lumbering thing that only in emergency situations would it get this crasy amount of speed hence "boost", i dont like it but i think we should put a cap on engines to about say...150 and be more generous with the speed upgrades for BC, also we should get a missile that will cut engines and boost for a few seconds like the wraiths EMP

The immediate issue that comes from that:

BC has no method of really escaping from a small ship barrage. Also, this will cost nothing of the main BC's power, and due to the lumbering speed it becomes very easy to see if the BC itself is making a death assault, so you can make a death charge.

In short: I think that would change the metagame to involve far less actual BC and far more small ship. In a sense, I think that's AWESOME. It reduces power docking potential, makes the game involve a lot more back and forth regarding the usage of small ships, and so on. But... this changes the metagame really drastically and that would worry me. Moreover, there's little potential for a comeback from a team who's losing in terms of SS battle during early game, meaning Wraith Pilot becomes a instant winning factor.

Another idea sort of came to mind:

Structural Health:
Whenever you take damage, your battlecruiser loses some structural health. You take an increased ammount of damage modifier equal to 100/Structural Hull. You lose roughly 0.1% structural hull per 100 damage taken. You can repair 10% structural hull using 50 Kermiculite.


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 Post subject: Re: Unfinishable Late Game
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 3:43 am 
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I agree with Marine.

Whyte, I disagree with the idea, but what about damage decreases maximum hull.
i.e. if you take 1k damage, you can only heal up to 9,800.

However, lets remember how teams begin to lose. It is always because of small ship losses in the first 7 minutes. Which leads to mineral inequality.
We all know the story, a Wraith is caught out of positon or destroyed, and Miners are then caught and destroyed. The Winning Team capitalizes by continuing to mine, while the Losing Team realizes their impossible scenerio. They only have 1 miner and a corvette. All of the nearby fields are mined out, and the upgraded enemy Wraiths are circIing like buzzards. IT'S HOPELESS!


Possible Solutions Changes:

Multiple Infiltrators and Hacking.

Ship Salvage: So you can scrap your Corvette for a Miner.

Structural Sacrifice: Decrease Maximum hull by 1k for 50 Yellow & 50 Blue. This is the reverse of Hull Upgrade, and 1/2 as efficient.

BattleCruiser velocity damage scales.

Events that begin to occur at the ~24 minute mark.


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 Post subject: Re: Unfinishable Late Game
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 4:26 am 
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Corinthian wrote:
Structural Sacrifice: Decrease Maximum hull by 1k for 50 Yellow & 50 Blue. This is the reverse of Hull Upgrade, and 1/2 as efficient.

Quick, sacrifice 3000 hull for two additional miners! EVERYBODY, MINE RIGHT NOW!


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 Post subject: Re: Unfinishable Late Game
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 5:35 am 
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This is a problem I've been noticing for a pretty long time but I haven't found a good way to fix it. Thank you for bringing it up, DumbMarine.

The problem with hull integrity is that it is something that isn't obvious for new players and it has to be changed to be made apparent someway. You can directly select a Battlecruiser to see it's hull, but I have to show the hull integrity on the status window and I'd like to show it somewhere else as well.

Reducing max hull is similar, how do you make it obvious to a beginner why their team's BC's max hull just got reduced by 200?

I'm wondering if I should try to address this before the tournament or after. I think the general rule is to not release patches that changes the game drastically right before events like this but it might be for the better.

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 Post subject: Re: Unfinishable Late Game
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 6:18 am 
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viewtopic.php?f=8&t=387

:P here's what can help you, - mass replicator working both for creating minerals from energy over time and back (refining minerals for energy) - would give the team that dominates and can freely over-mine their enemy a great boost in energy cap, which will allow it to outrun enemy in energy.

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 Post subject: Re: Unfinishable Late Game
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 1:45 pm 
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One of the things I really like this game, is that it is a game of transitions. However, currently, several transitions are not allowed simply because of noob fear. This is not an acceptable reason to keep delightful, and necessary, capabilities out of the game.

1) I agree that Mass Replicator should be able to create energy by burning minerals.

2) Ships should be able to be recycled.

Both of these changes would help mitigate the stated problem, and they are simple enough that people can quickly grasp the strategic implications.


Both of these changes would also create the Mechanic position. The Mechanic would be in-charge of Construction, Lower-Deck Debris, Lower-Deck Predators, Infiltrator Killing, Mass-Replicator usage, Vessel Recycling, and Speed Chomping.

The Mid-Shipman would still be in-charge of Upgrades, Top-Deck Debris, Missile Loading, Top-Deck Predators, Infiltrator Killing, Science, AI's, and Crew Revival.


Last edited by Corinthian on Sun May 26, 2013 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Unfinishable Late Game
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 2:06 pm 
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I agree with these changes, but I'm also not sure if those two changes alone will be enough to fix the problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Unfinishable Late Game
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 2:40 pm 
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I agree, they will not Fix the problem, they will help Mitigate it, in certain circumstances.


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