Cruiser Command

Cruiser command is a cooperative map between two teams. Simply put, each team controls one battlecruiser and the goal is to kill the opponent's battlecruiser.


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 Post subject: Hardened Shields
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 1:23 am 
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I've noticed this, not sure if there is a bug or not, shields as they are now... each upgrade says it's just +8% resistance, but it really seems like more, maybe like 20%, because having hardened shields lvl 1 and level 4, makes as much difference as trying to cut warm butter or hard rocks with a knife. Is there a bug to them, or 24% really makes so much difference?

Maybe they start regaining faster with level too?

Btw from what i noticed again, each level of hardened shields makes shield boost do +1000 more shield, thus level 1 only adds around 1000 or even less, think this should be reconsidered to 2000 base, +500 each next upgrade, or something like that, not sure of the real values, i don't mean to boost the hardened shields, just balance it on lower levels, because having shields below lvl 4 is kinda same as having none at all.

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Possible bug is, maybe each level of hardened shields give 8%/16%/24%/32%, but the previous value removal is forgotten? that would make hardened shields work at 8%/24%/48%/80% - that is REALLY how it feels like, i mean lvl 4 sure feels like double shield strength

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 Post subject: Re: Hardened Shields
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 2:27 am 
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I believe shield boost will boost your battlecruiser's shields by 750 per level. That means at level 4, it should boost it by roughly 3k if I'm correct. Also, I disagree with making hardened shields more powerful at the lower level because it creates a situation where enhancing it further is silly. Each level of the upgrade should be roughly as powerful as the last if the cost remains the same.

The reason the damage reduction may seem greater is due to the comparison of change.

A maxed penta burst should, in theory, deal 120 damage to shields. Assuming the shield regeneration is at 100, and you assume 1.5 penta burst per second (180DPS), it should appear as if 80 damage was done every second.

Take shields level 1. That's 92% of the original damage, making it only 165, making the damage seem to be only 165. That would appear to be far more than 8%, in fact nearly 20%.

Then take shields level 4. That's 68% of the original damage, making it 122 damage. That would mean it would appear to be only 22 damage.

In short, I don't believe there's any error. You simply have to look deeper into it. I do believe the firing rate is a bit faster for Pentaburst, but this is a rough assumption. Not solid facts.

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Also, I doubt Siretu would make an error that actually requires him to be double the effort to actually be made. :P


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 Post subject: Re: Hardened Shields
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 11:07 am 
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uhm at the moment, as i mentioned before, it's either level 4 or no shield at all, that is why i said that it should be better at earlier levels, i don't mean increasing the damage it blocks, just the boost abbility, because atm it REALLY is underpowered, because if u get 750 to shield, which will go off like butter compared to 3000 shield that is pretty solid and hardly reduced by weapons, lets at least multiply it on the shield modifier and see how much it really is.

Modifiers are:
68/100 for 3000,
76/100 for 2250,
84/100 for 1500
92/100 for 750

Lets assume, that normal shields are level 4, any lower level is just reduced shielding, this way we can say that shield boost radio is:
level 4: 3000
level 3: 2000 (68/76 * 2250)
level 2: 1200 (68/84 * 1500)
level 1: 554 (68/92 * 750)

So level 1 would give you 554 of equivallent shielding which is roughly 5.5 times worse then level 4. Those 750 shields are absolutely nothing in terms of gain, not to mention it's still full power usage to boost.

That is why my suggestion was making it 1500 at level 1 and +500 for each next level, this way the boost would actually give you at least something, but the shield will still be lost very easily.

P.S. you do not upgrade hardened shield to get the shield boost, you upgrade it to get your shields stronger, and the boost is just a nice addition to it.

You also gotta note that those 1500 of base shield level 1 aren't really 1500, they're 1100 in equivalent to hardened shield level 4)

P.P.S. all the math i brought up doesn't even include the rate at which shield regenerates, that way a stronger shield would regenerate to a better value and would modify the given values by at least 1.5 times more

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 Post subject: Re: Hardened Shields
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 12:40 pm 
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I think you brought up a really important point:

IvanX wrote:
P.S. you do not upgrade hardened shield to get the shield boost, you upgrade it to get your shields stronger, and the boost is just a nice addition to it.


I agree with this. All your math is based around the boost, which is not the big point of the hardened shield upgrade. The big point is the reduction which is still linear.

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 Post subject: Re: Hardened Shields
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 1:42 pm 
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I'm not sure about the linearity. In fact, it's pretty much not linear at all.
Of course 8->16->24->32 is linear, but the actually game relevant point, dealt damage to actually received damage, is not linear.

hardened shield lvl 1 for example means that you have to deal 108 damage instead of 100, so the enemy receives 100 damage. The enemy has to have a higher damage output of 8% to account for this.

Now if we skip to level 4, it means that 32% of the damage is absorbed. The enemy has to have 147 damage output to damage your shields by 100 hitpoints.
This is an increase of 47% of weapon output the enemy has to account for, to do the same damage as without shields upgrades.

The actual curve (damage output to received damage) says 100, 108, 119, 132, 147 for hardened shield lvl 0, 1, 2, 3, 4 respectively.
Equation formula: 100 / (1 - 0.08*shield level)
100 is for the received damage, while the result of the equation being the damage output the enemy has to do, to actually inflict 100 damage.


If you're not convinced by the effect of this, think of the following extreme example:
A hypothetical hardened shield level 11 reduces damage by 88%, so you're getting hurt by 12% of the original damage output.
A hypothetical shield level 12 would reduce damage by 96%, so you're only hurt by 4% of the original damate. A reduction to just a third of the damage just one shield level before.


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 Post subject: Re: Hardened Shields
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 2:35 pm 
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Yes, your math is correct. I was talking about the reduction, not the increased necessary weapon power.

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 Post subject: Re: Hardened Shields
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 2:55 pm 
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My math is the actually game relevant though.

It influences everything in the fight, the needed weapons energy to kill the enemy and the generally inflicted damage, leading to the enemy's defeat.

In the case you don't want an exponential curve for the needed damage output, you should redesign the damage reduction of hardened shielding to a regressive curve, so the damage output increases linearly, from 100 at lvl 0 to 108, 116, 124 and 132.


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 Post subject: Re: Hardened Shields
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 3:30 pm 
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The problem with that is that it's not as clear. Explaining that an upgrade has a regressive damage reduction curve wont be pretty. I'd rather have clear numbers since most will know enough math to understand the consequences of it.

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 Post subject: Re: Hardened Shields
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 3:31 pm 
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I entirely disagree with the boost ability being underpowered. You're completely ignoring the fact that you're also getting 50% shield regeneration and a 50% boost to maximum shields. Yes, the 750 shields will shave off quickly, but the purpose of Shield Boost was originally meant to simply be a method of quickly enhancing shields in a dangerous situation -- boosting it so that at level once you get 2000 shields seems a bit out of place, allowing you to make a minor investment early game in order to get enough shields to shrug off most damage until you can raise your engines. Moreover, you have to expect that the enemy damage will also be at a lower level as your shields are (typically) unless they've made an appropriate opportunity cost. Yes, it will soak up less damage. Compare it to lower level lasers and you should also expect less damage coming in. (Yes, I get that this will not always be the case - this is working under the most basic assumption of opportunity cost and assuming a roughly equivalent economy. Otherwise, of course you can expect those with more resources to have a bigger advantage.)

And regarding damage reduction being linear, it does technically scale better later on in terms of pure damage reduction as Degra pointed out -- however, you're taking the most extreme case of Level 11.

Level 1: 92% Damage
Level 2: 84% Damage - 91% of Previous Level
Level 3: 76% Damage - 90% of Previous Level
Level 4: 68% Damage - 88% of Previous Level
...
Level 11: 12% Damage
Level 12: 4% Damage - 33.3% of Previous Level.

Overall the actual difference between each level doesn't show that much so long as it's kept between the four levels. While it's true that the actual damage reduction per level becomes a bit higher, it's kept within a few percents.


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 Post subject: Re: Hardened Shields
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 3:40 pm 
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You can make it roughly that 11%/19%/26%/32%, that would reduce the damage lineary for every level, but in fact it will not be linear after you apply the shield regeneration filter (because shield gain will also increase the "total shield" enemy needs to kill by the same amount, but at least it would make lower levels worth getting.

Mostly when u kill a 6k shield enemy cruiser regenerates at least 6k more while you do that, so your total increasing of shield boost is doubled, plus when your shields go down much faster that regeneration bonus also decreased by a lot, making the level difference wider.

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That is why level 4 hardened shield is a must have atm. A few games ago I've been surprised when our captain got us every upgrade necessary except hardened shields, when we were at a sick economics with mass resources, most likely far ahead of enemy. We rushed and nearly lost, cause we didn't have maxed hardened shields.

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To WhyteDragon:

Yes, as i already mentioned you get shield regeneration increasing for a few seconds and damage blocking, but 750 is still 750, and it is even lower - 500 by the terms of shield hardening, your point of regeneration it doubles is mostly on my side, because if you got a greater regeneration of strong shields you get lvl*8% more out of that too, so that makes the shield on lower levels even more imbalanced compared to higher levels.

Have you ever fought a lvl 4 hardened shielded cruiser with a lower level of shields? if you did you know what i mean, since even if you put 8000 shields, enemy can balance it by putting up 1500 - that is wrong, the difference is too high, and to add over that, once they use shields they get +3k, while you only get 750, when every 5 of your shield points is worth 1 for enemy. that 750 would seem like 250 to 3000 applying every dynamic part of shield mathing.

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