Cruiser Command

Cruiser command is a cooperative map between two teams. Simply put, each team controls one battlecruiser and the goal is to kill the opponent's battlecruiser.


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 Post subject: Repair bots break the game since they are rediculously OP
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:53 pm 
inCC
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Let me start out with a quotation of our general first discussion about the matter in our skype chatroom.
Feel free to skip it by scrolling down to the bottom first and reading it afterwards, if you were still interested in our little discussion... An abbreviation of the subject at hand will await you down there.
Spoiler: Show
Quote:
[03:18:47] Degra: Omg
[03:18:55] Degra: Our hull isn't dropping
[03:18:58] Degra: We got 0 shields
[03:19:06] Degra: We're just tanking with stations
[03:19:13] Erik - iNsOmni CC creator: How many guys repairing?
[03:19:16] Degra: They are shooting with penta and broadsides
[03:19:19] Degra: I and Capsnip
[03:19:21] Dumb Marine: 20 hp/s PER station is pretty super
[03:19:32] Erik - iNsOmni CC creator: How many levels of thermite?
[03:19:35] Degra: We placed stations stations all over the ship before the fight
[03:19:37] Degra: max
[03:19:41] Dumb Marine: like 6 stations is the equivalent of 600 GW of shields of regen
[03:19:46] ABC: rep stations are op
[03:19:50] ABC: LoCC proved it
[03:19:54] Erik - iNsOmni CC creator: :D
[03:19:57] jodak_87: totally op
[03:20:01] ABC: zero damage during fight with 0 shield :D
[03:20:03] Degra: You want the replay?
[03:20:06] Erik - iNsOmni CC creator: Nah
[03:20:09] Erik - iNsOmni CC creator: I'll take your word for it
[03:20:19 | Bearbeitet 03:20:20] Erik - iNsOmni CC creator: So
[03:20:24] Erik - iNsOmni CC creator: How do I nerf it properly?
[03:20:31] Dumb Marine: also I think Glarion has a point that the stations make damage from moving the BC pointless
[03:20:44] Dumb Marine: like, hotfix nerf?
[03:20:44] jodak_87: make it repair the BC only if those thingies kill debris?
[03:20:45] Degra: [03:20] Erik - iNsOmni CC creator:

<<< So
How do I nerf it properly?Increase required range
[03:20:53] Degra: So you have less stations active at once
[03:20:57] Erik - iNsOmni CC creator: Yeah
[03:21:09] Erik - iNsOmni CC creator: I think I'll also increase the period from 0.5 to 1
[03:21:31] Dumb Marine: so they'll repair half as fast?
[03:21:35] Erik - iNsOmni CC creator: Yeah
[03:21:44] Erik - iNsOmni CC creator: I'll do three things
[03:22:16] Erik - iNsOmni CC creator: reduce duration to 45s, increase range by 30-40% and increase period from 0.5 to 1
[03:22:32] Dumb Marine: that sounds good to me for this patch
[03:22:38] Degra: Sounds reasonable
[03:22:44] jodak_87: so... what is stopping me from staying in construction consol and spamming free repair bots?
[03:22:50] Degra: Nothing
[03:22:52] Degra: Do it
[03:22:52] Dumb Marine: nothing but what do you gain from it
[03:22:59] Dumb Marine: yo have to deploy em
[03:22:59] jodak_87: free repairs
[03:23:06] jodak_87: they repair BC without debris
[03:23:08] Erik - iNsOmni CC creator: If you spam it, you only get the item
[03:23:10] Erik - iNsOmni CC creator: you have to place them
[03:23:15] Dumb Marine: yes you get free repairs
[03:23:22] Dumb Marine: the minelayer gives free repairs too >_>
[03:23:34] Erik - iNsOmni CC creator: And the shield energy is technically free repairs
[03:23:35] jodak_87: press q - set them free - press q again - set them free rinse and repaet
[03:23:37 | Bearbeitet 03:23:46] Degra: Yea, but you can drop the item all over the BC... so you can pick it up and activate it immediately
[03:23:37] jodak_87: ea*
[03:23:48] Dumb Marine: that doesn't deploy them, you have to deploy them
[03:23:53] Dumb Marine: by pickign them up and putting them down
[03:23:56] jodak_87: "set them free"
[03:23:57] Rulestormer aka Degra - the guy I know from CC: I know
[03:24:00] Dumb Marine: ah
[03:24:09] Dumb Marine: well, you can only have one deployed in an area at a time
[03:25:17] jodak_87: I mean it's way overpowered, since they need no debris for hull repairs
but I'll wait for hotfix
[03:25:26] Dumb Marine: neither does the minelayer
[03:25:32] Dumb Marine: dont see the minelayer repair as being overpowered
[03:25:42] Erik - iNsOmni CC creator: Jodak, why is it overpowered just because it is a free repair?
[03:25:49] Dumb Marine: drones aren't affected by fire! :O
[03:26:04] Dumb Marine: or maybe this is fake fire
[03:26:04] Dumb Marine: weird
[03:26:18] jodak_87: yea - but(!) minelayer needs ressources to be built (+upgrade) - also - it needs energy - also energy gets depleted fast and its repair isn't that strong
[03:26:35] Dumb Marine: upgrade is free now
[03:26:43] Dumb Marine: repair station doesnt have a strong repair either
[03:26:49] Dumb Marine: or
[03:26:52] Dumb Marine: it soon wont
[03:26:57] jodak_87: -upgreade then - it need a pilot who could be doing something else
[03:26:58] Erik - iNsOmni CC creator: Jodak, what's the difference between shields regenerating and hull repairing?
[03:27:01] jodak_87: needs*
[03:27:24] Dumb Marine: I dont see the difference between someone humping the construction console for repair stations and someone using the minelayer to heal the BC
[03:27:29] Erik - iNsOmni CC creator: Why is hull repairing for free OP while shields regenerating is not OP?
[03:27:29] Degra: [03:27] Erik - iNsOmni CC creator:

<<< Jodak, what's the difference between shields regenerating and hull repairing?One needs energy
[03:27:45] Dumb Marine: this is true
[03:27:51] jodak_87: hull repairing needs time (cooldown and placement)
shield recharge needs GJ from weapons, Engines and main capacitor so it is limited at some point
[03:27:51] Erik - iNsOmni CC creator: Degra, yes and what is the problem of using energy for shields?
[03:28:01] Erik - iNsOmni CC creator: There's an opportunity cost
[03:28:03] jodak_87: hull repairing has no limits to it
[03:28:12] jodak_87: exepct neglectable CD
[03:28:19] Dumb Marine: what if spawning a hull station cost 100 energy
[03:28:22] Erik - iNsOmni CC creator: What do you mean?
[03:28:24] Dumb Marine: fixed?
[03:28:27] Erik - iNsOmni CC creator: Shields has no limit
[03:28:27] Degra: You can pour like 250 gw into weapons and 100 gw into engines during a fight and never get depleted energy
[03:28:34] Erik - iNsOmni CC creator: hull has a limit
[03:28:35] Degra: Absolutely no energy problems
[03:28:38] Degra: Yea
[03:28:53] Degra: True but that hull repair really was ridiculous
[03:28:53] Erik - iNsOmni CC creator: Hull has a limit because you can only fit X repair stations at any given time
[03:29:00] Degra: we had 5 gw on shields when we engaged
[03:29:11] Erik - iNsOmni CC creator: Degra, I agree that it was OP but it's not OP because it was free
[03:29:19] Erik - iNsOmni CC creator: it was OP because it healed too much with too little effort
[03:29:20] jodak_87: it has - did you see ppl overlaod shields in battle? - you drain your main capacitor quite fast if the captain is likeing that
[03:29:25] Degra: ya
[03:29:36] Degra: Still, you could maybe give the items a decoy
[03:29:42] jodak_87: no energy in capacitor = no shileds -> going offline
[03:29:56] Degra: Right now you can seed them all over the ship and the repair dude never needs to run back to Construction console back again
[03:30:19] Dumb Marine: this is true
[03:30:29] Degra: Give the item a decoy time
[03:30:33] Degra: after that it disappears
[03:30:35] Erik - iNsOmni CC creator: decoy time?
[03:30:41] Degra: Well
[03:30:42] Degra: uhm
[03:30:44] Dumb Marine: expire time?
[03:30:47] Degra: limited life time
[03:30:52] Erik - iNsOmni CC creator: Are people agreeing with me or not? I'm confused.
[03:31:12] Erik - iNsOmni CC creator: Do people agree that it's not OP because it's free, it's OP because it heals too much with too little effort?
[03:31:25] Degra: [03:31] Erik - iNsOmni CC creator:

<<< it's OP because it heals too much with too little effort?
[03:31:35] Dumb Marine: I dont think it's OP because it's free, however I think glarion has a point in that it negates hull damage from going too fast
[03:31:42] Erik - iNsOmni CC creator: I agree with that
[03:31:48] Dumb Marine: it does need to be looked at
[03:32:01] Dumb Marine: but OP? I think it's still beatable even if it's free
[03:32:08] Dumb Marine: the bigger issue is the regen rate
[03:32:12 | Bearbeitet 03:32:19] Erik - iNsOmni CC creator: However, it's going to be an issue in its current state no matter how we balance hull repairs as long as hull tanking is viable
[03:32:27] DEF: dont make them free.. make them really cheap
[03:32:33] DEF: like.. 5 blue
[03:32:39] Dumb Marine: I bet the optimal combat group is going to have super high shields and hull tanking
[03:33:03] DEF: or make them take time to 'construct' instead of being instant?
[03:33:03] Dumb Marine: you can do both
[03:33:12] Erik - iNsOmni CC creator: They're going to stay free at least for a long time
[03:33:21] Dumb Marine: that would be good as long as they auto-spawn and you don't have to sit there and be bored on the console
[03:33:24] Erik - iNsOmni CC creator: Until I'm convinced it doesn't work with them free
[03:33:45] Dumb Marine: if they auto spawn though they run the risk of overrunning the ship >_>
[03:34:00] Degra: Decoy = decay
[03:34:04] Dumb Marine: ah
[03:34:11] DEF: robot revoltion!
[03:34:12] Degra: I was thinking about another word but wrote another
[03:34:13] Degra: >.<
[03:34:17] Degra: Whatev
[03:34:29] Dumb Marine: I thought you were hinting at hallucinations or something
[03:34:29] DEF: if you make to many they revolt and take over the ship!
[03:39:35] Dumb Marine: oh the repair stations scale with the hull? Niiiiiiiiiiiiice
[03:39:47 | Bearbeitet 03:39:49] Erik - iNsOmni CC creator: Yeah
[03:40:05] Erik - iNsOmni CC creator: I might change that though
[03:40:06] Dumb Marine: that sounds like it will be brutal
[03:44:07] Erik - iNsOmni CC creator: I'm going to bed
[03:44:14] Erik - iNsOmni CC creator: Please try out the miners again
[03:44:24] Erik - iNsOmni CC creator: in singleplayer would be best
[03:44:27] Dumb Marine: hokay
[03:44:30] Erik - iNsOmni CC creator: so you can see how they react to the enemy BC
[03:45:58] Dumb Marine: same biz so far
[03:46:17] Dumb Marine: they refusing to launch
[03:47:57] Dumb Marine: miner is scarred for life
[04:02:14] jodak_87: guys...
[04:02:24] jodak_87: wanna see the replay with me together?
[04:03:26] jodak_87: since this is a new feature that came with HotS, we should use it
[04:05:25 | Bearbeitet 04:05:37] JARG: I still think the major flaw with hull tanking* is that there's nothing else to really throw your energy towards
[04:05:45] JARG: *as a viable ALTERNATIVE to shields
[04:05:45] jodak_87: JARG, will you watch the replay with me?
[04:05:55] JARG: I don't have HotS
[04:06:01] jodak_87: you don't need it
[04:06:03] JARG: and I don't have the time, just wanted to pop in to say that
[04:06:06] jodak_87: it's from the 2.0 patch
[04:06:16] jodak_87: it's not HotS exclusive
[04:06:23] jodak_87: ^^
[04:06:28] jodak_87: well, ok
[04:06:38] jodak_87: I hope my replay will open his eyes
[04:06:57] jodak_87: we were ambushed
[04:07:08] jodak_87: but - 0 dmg to hull thanks to those little guys ^^
[04:07:24] jodak_87: I just ran around and spammed my num keys
[04:07:39] jodak_87: to place them
[04:12:37] jodak_87: it was a 46:53 game (min:sec) - with an ALL NOOB team on my side (all 0 rep exept myself) VS a mostly experianced and a >100rep-pro
[04:14:36] jodak_87: my team basically just learned everything by trying out everything since I was chattin' here on skype instead of answering questions (I simply missed 'em)
[04:40:26] jodak_87: 27:32 - Team1 is engaging and assuming an offensive position
35:00 - Team1 is engaging Team 2 directly now - going for the attack
35:22 - BCs are in battle I immediatly start to lay down my repair bots after I realize that we are under attack by the enemy (that should be around half a minute after they started fireing at us)
36:10 - repairs start to kick in (7k hp of 10k total)
37:00 - I have time to chat a little and tell my guys that we are under attack (9k hp of 10k)
38:30 - We are now fireing back at the enemy (all dmg we did was 1-shots from A.I.-gunner)
41:00 - pausing battle - I reveal my troll to my team "we cannot lose" - "we are abusing a repair mechanic"
42:10 - engaging enemy BC again - I instruct my team to set power values
43:00 - no more energy in weapon capacitor - enemy keeps retreating
46:00 - Enemy neutralized
[04:40:33] jodak_87: so you see - 10 minutes
[04:40:45] jodak_87: 10 minutes in which we did not drop below 8k hp
[04:41:05] jodak_87: in fact - we were mostly above 9,5k
[04:41:35] jodak_87: I am truly sorry for "spamming" but this is seriously endangering gameplay
[04:41:49] jodak_87: truely*
[04:45:25] jodak_87: repairbots as they are now (even with those little tweaks) keep the BC invincable - and if someone else is helping with the repairs, higher range and lower duration (which neutralizes each others effect btw.) will be countered by the sheer mass of repairbots on the ship.
[04:47:29] GHI: Guys
[04:47:31] GHI: Calm your tits
[04:47:34] GHI: 900 messages!
[04:47:54] jodak_87: I propose some ways to fix this...
just a sec...
[04:48:47] JARG: I'm not surprised
[04:49:13] JARG: the community seems to kneejerk against high dps values and reinforce consistently more durable ships
[04:49:28] GHI: Tbh, achieving balance has never been easy.
[04:49:34] GHI: If you increase DPS, people will wantm ore durable ship
[04:49:41] GHI: But then they'll complain about stuff being invincible.
[04:49:46] JARG: I know, but even in the beta, certain shield builds were a major pain to break
[04:50:11] JARG: and for a hull defense method that seems unbreakable, I'd go to the same solution as I would for an unbreakable shield...
[04:50:13] JARG: core damage.
[04:50:52] Degra: Yama + sabre should still be working well
[04:51:13] JARG: I'm just disappointed that it seems like it'd be necessary to employ vs hull builds too
[04:53:18] JARG: I've never really complained about dying too fast, on the contrary, what annoys me is for those situations where one team is behind and seemingly unable to recover, and it just takes forever to end it. I don't think this is really an example of something that will protract the game unnecessarily (I haven't gotten to try it yet), but it doesn't sound like it helps...
[04:59:07] Degra: "I mean, from a realism standpoint, engine boost is dramatically overclocking the engine acceleration. How is that BETTER than just using the engine properly? Otherwise, why not remove the engines, slap 4 engine boosters on the BC, and use boost only to move the BC? Massively better ship."

I LOL'd, but full support of that
[04:59:36] Degra: I wanna have 4 engine boost upgrades!
[05:00:05] JARG: I think of the engine boost like nitrous oxide...
[05:00:19] Degra: mmh
[05:00:36] Degra: which is why it would make sense for it to cost some resources
[05:00:47] JARG: I think it's fine costing energy
[05:00:50] JARG: but you could change the equation
[05:00:52] Degra: 3k is too low though
[05:00:55] JARG: it's fine
[05:01:07] Degra: I'd prefer 6k
[05:01:15] JARG: if you made it 10 + X/2, where X is the engine power...
[05:01:32] Degra: Hm
[05:01:34] JARG: or something like that
[05:01:41] Degra: More like 3000 + X/2
[05:01:46] JARG: no i mean
[05:01:47] JARG: for the speed
[05:01:53] JARG: it would go 10 + X/2 m/s
[05:01:53] Degra: ah
[05:01:54] Degra: well
[05:02:07] JARG: then the cost of 3k would seem fine imo
[05:02:22] JARG: because at 0 engine power, you're getting a temporary 10m/s boost... which is kinda pitiful
[05:02:27] Degra: I'd still like a good escaping method, but costly on energy
[05:02:37] Degra: I'd be ok with up to 10k energy costs
[05:03:08] JARG: the problem I see though is that any mobility enhancing skill to get away can also be used to chase
[05:03:21] Degra: Yup
[05:03:27] Degra: But with 10k energy costs...
[05:03:38] Degra: Chasing battles would be interesting
[05:03:57] Degra: both teams should think if it's really worth it to escape/chase
[05:06:33] jodak_87: 1. Let the rep.bots NOT repair hull by default. Let them do that ONLY by destroying debris. Buff repairs gained from destroying debris.

2. Let them repair the hull as they are now. But make that cost something so it has a limit. Add mineral cost to it OR [energy cost [for buying OR placing them]]

3. Let them rapair the hull as they are now. But increase repair interval (even MORE than you are now anyway).

4. Take them out from the game. Instead, buff the normal repair kit which we all know and love (neglect *cough*), so it repairs the hull significantly via clearing debris - let that scale with number of debris destroyed.

Contras to my solutions:
to 1.: Single kinetic branch is counter-productive -> generating more debris => more healing.
to 2.: Same as [to 1.], but it is limited by your available ressources (may it be minerals or energy idc).
to 3.: Same as [to 1.], but it won't be that rediculusly overpowered in the end.
to 4.: Same as [to 3.].
[05:08:01] Degra: If you do so many thoughts and took that long to make this post, better do it on the forums
[05:08:11] Degra: So more people will read and reply to it
[05:08:44] JARG: taking out of the game: very poor option, Erik worked hard on it xD
[05:08:54] Degra: Yea
[05:08:55] jodak_87: I'll copy this to the forum then - it's just that I'm a nobody there and I'm really concerned about this
[05:08:59] Degra: index.php
[05:09:08] JARG: eh, people on the forum don't know me either lol
[05:09:24] JARG: and I'm in the credits xD

(Edit: I just saw, that there is a spoiler function... click on "Show" to see the full chit-chat)
I changed nicknames which looked like real names into "ABC", "DEF" and "GHI".

To abbreviate my quotation: The new repair bots which can be purchased in the construction console for free, are breaking the game and make it impossible for either team to lose/win a game.
In my honest oppinion, this new feature needs to be modified as soon as possible, because it makes the game absolutely boring to play.

I proposed several ways to fix this issue:
Quote:
[05:06:33] jodak_87: 1. Let the rep.bots NOT repair hull by default. Let them do that ONLY by destroying debris. Buff repairs gained from destroying debris.

2. Let them repair the hull as they are now. But make that cost something so it has a limit. Add mineral cost to it OR [energy cost [for buying OR placing them]]

3. Let them rapair the hull as they are now. But increase repair interval (even MORE than you are now anyway).

4. Take them out from the game. Instead, buff the normal repair kit which we all know and love (neglect *cough*), so it repairs the hull significantly via clearing debris - let that scale with number of debris destroyed.

Contras to my solutions:
to 1.: Single kinetic branch is counter-productive -> generating more debris => more healing.
to 2.: Same as [to 1.], but it is limited by your available ressources (may it be minerals or energy idc).
to 3.: Same as [to 1.], but it won't be that rediculusly overpowered in the end.
to 4.: Same as [to 3.].

I may add another one...

5. Let them repair the hull as they are now. Limit the total number of bots that can be placed on the BC simultaniously - e.g. let an error message appear if 5 bots are placed and you want to place a sixth one. (Numbers in this example are imaginary and open for discussion).

Suggestions #2 and #5 will add a limit to the amount of repairing, just like shields have it within their dependance on main capacitor and like the Mine layer has it in its little energy reserves - which can be extended manually with energy transfers, so HPS is not breaking down significantly.
Additionally, #5 would allow to get rid of the termite upgrade's number of total upgrades that can be researched (just like we have it with general hull upgrades atm.)

Please share your own thoughts about this issue and discuss vividly ^^ - furthermore, please excuse my english if you spot any spelling/grammar errors :P


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 Post subject: Re: Repair bots break the game since they are rediculously O
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:46 am 
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The issue with the repair station is that it extends a game *way* too long. My suggestion would be to reduce it from 10 hp per second to 1 or 2 hp per second. This way 6 people could get 6 to 12 hp per second, and it would actually take a lot of time to fully repair back. I'm not sure if a resource cost would make much of a difference here, as quite frankly I do think it should be a time-based deal. 10 hp per second per station is a bit too fast, though.

Edit: Another way to think about it, is that I should not go from drunk to sober during a game of CC because of these things...


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 Post subject: Re: Repair bots break the game since they are rediculously O
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:13 am 
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I'll say this:

Not every team will be able to coordinate and capitalize on the maximum gain from the new repair stations, due to lacking of coordination/experience/etc. Any team that contains any two LoCC members will, however, be quite invincible. We tested it and proved it.

Now, I do understand that I've been running a near-unbeatable shield-tank for a long time now; it will only be more so now that Hardened Shielding now gives the proper damage reduction. The difference is power usage - I can only hold the tank for so long before energy runs dry. Smart players (*cough*Tempest*cough*) know how to evade for long enough without shileds, then pump them up and turn to fight. With hull tanking, I have our Refiner (first mate/ deck hand / call him what you will) spam repair stations and pre-place them EVERYWHERE very early in the game. When it's showtime, everyone has 8 of them in inventory, and they're still stockpiled all over the place. Everyone drops one before going to console and we just...ignore shields (sigh...all that mastery of power, wasted..).

How to balance? Severely nerf them. Add a mineral cost IMO so I can't spam them early in preparation. Add an energy cost to make it equal to shield-tanking. Hell, there are plenty of viable options already presented by others. The fact is, unless people are doing things the way I'm doing them (at least with this latest patch), I'm going to win. Period.

No opportunity cost. Do it or die.

That's textbook OP.


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 Post subject: Re: Repair bots break the game since they are rediculously O
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:48 am 
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Had a 90 minute game 5v5 with veteran teams. It is literally impossible to die without a destroyer + quantum leech, with both teams on the ball. The only reason the game ended when it did was due to an accident with one side's destroyer.

After watching the replay, the primary reason was the hull regen brought upon by debris. We hit 500 hp/s at one point because we were clearing up so much debris. (EDIT: After rewatching, that was with only one repair station! Holy crap!) It's both hilarious and scary.

However, even without that, survivability has gone way, way, way, way, way, way up. We were shieldhull tanking with ease. Basically, once shields go down, we iron curtain, 8 seconds of nigh invulnerability, take a hull beating, then we start the shields back up, shield boost, and tank like 5000 more damage while we repair hull. We can literally keep the cycle up indefinitely with a net positive power gain. The only thing that ended it was the destroyer's quantum leech causing the enemy team to literally run out of power. At that point, we simply hammered on them full blast with kinetics. It's not even clear if they could have tanked the damage we were doing, the game ended with a 'we surrender', not a fight to the bitter last end.

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Last edited by DumbMarine on Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Repair bots break the game since they are rediculously O
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:37 am 
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I agree that this is a problem, I just dont think giving it a mineral cost is a good idea. Shield regeneration doesn't cost minerals and I think therefore it'll probably always be better than hull tanking if the hull tanking costs minerals if dont keep the hull tanking repair REALLY good.

I did some changes yesterday, but obviously they were not enough.

Here's what I'm doing for my next try:

* Min radius increased from 14 to 16.
* Period increased from 1 to 1.5.
* Repair bots no longer scale with hull.
* Repairs nerfed by 50%.
* Duration reduced from 30 to 15s.
* Charges. You get one repair station charge in the construction console every 20 seconds. Each time you create a repair station, it removes a charge.

It's worth noting that Phytor played this game BEFORE the first nerf which did the following:
* Min radius increased from 10 to 14.
* Period increased from 0.5s to 1s.
* Duration reduced from 60s to 30s.

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 Post subject: Re: Repair bots break the game since they are rediculously O
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:30 am 
CCA
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Here's my analysis of hull tanking.

Hull tanking is very dangerous. Like, seriously dangerous. Fires tend to get dropped on important consoles. Debris gets scattered everywhere, cutting off access to consoles, missile tubes, and the hangar. Damage control is a hectic job. This is good! I like this. One unlucky fire and someone gets K/Oed for a painfully lengthy period of time, unless someone brings a revive kit (but nobody buys these).

Starting out damage control is seriously painful. You drop a repair station, and you can't drop another one because there's debris in the way. It takes like 5 seconds for your station to clear it, and once it does, there's another line of debris right behind it! It's too far from the station to get cleansed. You can't drop another station cause you're too close. Very painful! Getting past this debris is tough. (Actually I think this is bad gameplay, and something should be added so that you don't get pinned by a wall of debris, but not the main problem right now). Your ship is on fire, rapidly losing health, while the opposing ship's shields are still holding and its charging up its yamato for another blast. It looks bleak, if only you hadn't been by those hellfire missiles...

And so, anything that promotes debris and fires is a good thing right? Nope.

Debris is actually a huge boon to receive. Getting shot with single kinetics and their high debris rate? Hello 500 hp/s heal. Placing the stations down is tough, but once they're down? Prepare to be the hero of the BC. Bonus, the stations clear out fire, put them on your console and never lose a hit point. Debris and fire seriously need to be liabilities for the damage control team, not bonuses. Hellfire missiles and single-shot kinetics should be strongly anti-hull tanking, not worse than nothing.

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 Post subject: Re: Repair bots break the game since they are rediculously O
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:54 am 
ZergCC
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they shouldn't repair any hp from clearing debris at all imho, only do a flat hp heal, and then also clear debris/fire. Also they shouldn't instantly bring your bc to 100 hp ;) but you already fixed that so..

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 Post subject: Re: Repair bots break the game since they are rediculously O
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:09 pm 
LoCC
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I'd like to re-suggest the mineral cost for hull tanking in the light of logic; something I've been very fond of in regards to this game. I aspire to one day get a self-sustaining space station off the ground IRL so these are things I've thought of for a long time; energy, mass, physics, and the many conversions that can naturally occur between them.

Simply put, once a shield generator is built and functional, it's strength is only dependent upon the amount of electrical energy available to it, which is then converted into a magnetic field of a frequency likely to repel whatever you are trying to not get hit by. High tech visual devices linked to such a generator could analyze incoming projectiles and adjust the frequency as necessary.

Hull tanking: It's literally a function of mass. I agree that nano-bots COULD potentially utilize the debris caused from damage to reforge bulkheads and thus recycle the BC hull. Also, once built, they could potentially generate their own electrical current to sustain their movements and programming - living metal isn't that much a leap from bio-crete. Still, there IS the issue of making the nano-bots. Unlike protein synthesis, which would only require basic gases found in nebulae and an electrical current (Hizzah! Fusion generator!), these machines require metal.

Now, I'm not sure how schooled everyone is in Astronomy, Chemistry, etc... but the fact is that no material heavier than Carbon can be safely created in the fusion process - it won't happen in stars, and I highly doubt our little Battle Cruisers can do what they can't. You want Iron? Silver? Gold? You want materials absolutely necessary in creating metallic objects, or circuitry of the sophistication we're talking about? You need a supernova to blast some material from millions of light years away and eventually collect in an asteroid field, roughly in the position of our repetitive battles.

Ok...ranted a little hard there.

Obviously, we look past some logical features when it comes to our Mass Fabricator console, but we want some sort of fusion process and that's the best way to implement it. The main point I'm trying to make here is that Shield tanking SHOULD only have an energy cost. Hull tanking is a much more material thing, and should reflect that.

Risk vs. Reward analysis:

Shield Tanking:

When done right, BC hull takes 0 damage at the very high cost of energy. Engagements must be well thought out and executed with great speed in order to take advantage of the time available before energy (and thus shields) fails. Damage control involves power management mostly, with occasional assistance from Science to purge core. When shields actually go offline (after expending an emergency shield and boost usage), the game is most likely over in short time.

Hull Tanking:

By exposing the BC to physical danger, you free up a vast majority of energy supplies. Moving at much higher speeds and with a nearly un-ending supply of weapons power, teams have the ability to make prolonged chases and keep the weapons hot. Damage control becomes a team responsibility, where everyone must have a stock of Repair Stations and Science needs to be on-the-spot with Iron Curtian. The risk of having debris crash on players can be negated by carrying revive kits in addition to the mandatory stations, but if fire K/O's the whole team...it's game over.


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 Post subject: Re: Repair bots break the game since they are rediculously O
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:53 pm 
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why cant we just stick with the old way of repairing a BC? much more simple and straightforward and new players wont have to much difficulty with it, this one just takes to much time to purchase and deploy around the ship

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 Post subject: Re: Repair bots break the game since they are rediculously O
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:16 pm 
ZergCC
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How i see it:

shield tanking, one guy sits on power and twiddles some knobs.

hull tanking, 1/2 the crew (3 out of a 6 man team) run frantically around the whole ship constantly placing repair drones. one guy slips up and the hull is gone and you lose

if the entire team is running around repairing the ship maybe you should even be able to repair the ship under fire, but can you do anything else? no. I think this is a fun/interesting mechanic and really helps to give everyone something to do during battle. If you are using destroyers, or other tactics that require a full team to pull off your not going to be able to keep up the repairs.

*both* teams get repair bots, it is a mirror match up, so it's not really OP or UNBLANACED, just maybe needs some time to learn how to counter/ maybe be tweaked. Maybe we could upgrade one of the missiles with an 'emp charge' that 'disables all nano bots for 15 seconds' fire 6 of those and thats a full minute and a half where the others team repairs are completely shut down.

this would take SKILL as to when you fired them (when shields are down and hull is regenerating)

I really don't want to see these things nerfed into the ground so that they are unused like repair kits are. It is a really cool dynamic to the battle.


Also who cares about realism?! this is a game, its about fun. I don't see other attempts in this map to be 'real'

there are two approaches to balance when something is too strong and everyone uses it to always win


1) nerf them until everyone stops using them at all

2) buff something else that is not used much until its an effective counter

I much much much prefer option 2, it creates more variety in game play! this is a strategy game. if one strategy is to strong, don't take away that strategy, give us MORE strategies to counter it.

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