Cruiser Command

Cruiser command is a cooperative map between two teams. Simply put, each team controls one battlecruiser and the goal is to kill the opponent's battlecruiser.


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Boost
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:31 pm 
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The most immediately parallel you could draw would be broadsides, a full on attack ability of 5x60 on either side. Lets also toss in 3 levels of laser upgrades and call it 'roughly opportunity cost'. You could point out several alternatives, but there's many to point out when I'm just trying to focus on one issue right now.

Engine Boost or Broadside with 3 Laser Upgrades.

However, how can you initiate a fight if you can't even catch up to your opponent?

Engine Boost provides roughly 70 engine power for 10 seconds with a 40 second cool down. We could therefore say engine boost is roughly a 17.5 move speed contributor in terms of movement. This is well over 100 gw/s of power into engines at the cost of, what, 3000 every 40 seconds (75 gw/s)? And most importantly, this boost is all in the first ten seconds, removing you from combat instantly upon use if the opposing team does not have it.

Not only is it more energy efficient, it's easy to access and difficult to catch up to unless you're willing to take a large hit on energy yourself. You may say that this is simply a perk of the ability, but let me give you a list of what it contributes once more for the sake of argument.
  • A method of boosting engines on the Navigation Console rather than the Engine Console. This means that it is extremely simple to macro over rather than going back and forth across the ship to alter energy management.
  • A more energy efficient method of movement. Somehow, you would expect an ability like this to be much less energy efficient than actual movement, but it ends up being far superior.
  • A method of quickly escaping most combat situations if the opposing team lacks the upgrade.
Alright, I get it's an upgrade. It should have strong benefits that support the team. However, the benefits feel insurmountable by anything except engine boost. I've heard that each 5gw/s of power on engine is worth 0.5 speed. You would have to expend 175gw/s in order to match engine boost alone, and that's ignoring the fact that engine boost is a immediate burst, so the amount of time you would see the BC in such a situation would be minimal if you kept it as purely that.

In short? It's currently a 100gw/s per second upgrade on engines (before stabilizers) if you're constantly using it with the benefits of powerful combat getaway, juking capabilities for the inexperienced, and easy of use due to mingling with speed and direction. Getting 50gw/s bonus regen on your BC alone costs 250y 75b and 25 kerm. Compared to a 200y 50b 200r, the difference is quite large and you're already getting several other benefits. That's also ignoring the research time by comparison.

Plus, you can't initiate combat unless you actually catch up to your target. Come on.


Last edited by WhyteDragon on Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Engine Boost
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:13 am 
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engine boost should be equal to the amount of power consumption it would take to self accelerate engines all the way to the same distance of travel, it isnt so. Engine boost should be faster, seeing as its an immediate acceleration. But i do agree that it should be balanced with manual engine acceleration rates. it should not be more energy efficient.

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 Post subject: Re: Engine Boost
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:16 am 
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I really like having engine boost kill the engine after it expires, but I think it will nerf the boost too hard.

I also really like having the boost be a toggleable ability, but having it consume core stability doesn't sit well with me. If we added something like engine heat or something, where using the boost for too long would cause fires or damage the engines. Using it for the optimal amount of time would require some skill. But I think this is too complicated of a solution.

One thing we could also do is give the engine boost charges. You can only boost like, 3 times every 15 minutes, for example. You get a charge every 5 minutes, and you can stockpile 3 charges. That number was pulled out of thin air, it can be adjusted of course.

One other thing we could do is add a permanent cost to the engine boost every time you use it. Every time you engine boost, the energy cost of engine boosting goes up by 3000 permanently, or whatever, that number is also from thin air. So, while engine boost is powerful, using it repeatedly will result in pain in the late game when the upgrade starts eating up huge chunks of your capacitor.

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 Post subject: Re: Engine Boost
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:38 am 
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Tempest wrote:
engine boost should be equal to the amount of power consumption it would take to self accelerate engines all the way to the same distance of travel, it isnt so. Engine boost should be faster, seeing as its an immediate acceleration. But i do agree that it should be balanced with manual engine acceleration rates. it should not be more energy efficient.



The ability is an upgrade, not an alternative. It is and should remain better than conventional engine usage, regardless of any other changes that may or may not be implemented.

Comparisons to Fusion Core upgrade are noted, but not entirely accounted for. The extra power from Fusion Core can be utilized for engine/weapon/shield, whereas Engine Boost is nothing but engines that guarantee hull damage for high efficiency, short burst travel. In short, Core ups give a real GW value, Boost gives a limited but higher value.

I'd also like to note that 'catching your opponent' really isn't entirely necessary: small ship scouts and predator missiles give sight (not to mention our ability to fire through the fog of war now) which allows for long-range bombardment of the enemy BC.


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Boost
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:31 am 
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Not many Utilize this stradegy (and fewer do it well)

Also I consider the boost as sort of a tech check when they rush early-mid game and I see it as a defensive move and if they don't have it then they aren't fully prepared

I would just nerf the CD and buff the range
Increase how long it is active for...oh I don't know, I didn't memorize how long a boost is active :P
And increase the CD by a minute

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 Post subject: Re: Engine Boost
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:17 pm 
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LordDragon wrote:
Tempest wrote:
engine boost should be equal to the amount of power consumption it would take to self accelerate engines all the way to the same distance of travel, it isnt so. Engine boost should be faster, seeing as its an immediate acceleration. But i do agree that it should be balanced with manual engine acceleration rates. it should not be more energy efficient.



The ability is an upgrade, not an alternative. It is and should remain better than conventional engine usage, regardless of any other changes that may or may not be implemented.

Comparisons to Fusion Core upgrade are noted, but not entirely accounted for. The extra power from Fusion Core can be utilized for engine/weapon/shield, whereas Engine Boost is nothing but engines that guarantee hull damage for high efficiency, short burst travel. In short, Core ups give a real GW value, Boost gives a limited but higher value.

I'd also like to note that 'catching your opponent' really isn't entirely necessary: small ship scouts and predator missiles give sight (not to mention our ability to fire through the fog of war now) which allows for long-range bombardment of the enemy BC.

True, there are ways of spotting the BC in the FoW. You could SS scout, use radar, or even launch a predator missile. But I'm still worried about the limited range of a BC's normal shot. Even without FoW, I thought the laser still dissipates as normal about 0.5 the length of BC sight out into the FoW. So, in a sense, you still do have to catch up close enough to your opponent to fire at them, even if it is longer than the 'BC sight.' Even if you have a good firing range, you can't shoot halfway across the map.

But again, I think you're not understanding my main issue with this LordDragon. I get this is an upgrade, a particularly hefty one, but the actual speed boost you get from it isn't my main concern. Normally, here are the steps you'd need to go through if you wanted to make a getaway from the enemy if you were one person, all this assuming the enemy isn't willing to expend large amounts of energy on the engine. (We're drawing a comparison to Engine Boost vs. No Engine Boost after all.)
  1. (OPT) Move to Navigation.
  2. (OPT) Confirm throttle is on full on the BC if you haven't already.
  3. Move to Power Management.
  4. Up power on Engine for about 5-15 seconds depending on degree.
  5. Return to navigation.
  6. Steer away from the enemy as best as possible while pinging.
  7. Return to Power Management.
  8. Reduce Engine Power for about 2-15 seconds, depending on degree.
  9. Return to navigation.
  10. Continue steering and pinging.
After 6 becomes optional, but considering the possible power drain you'd probably end up back on power management anyways. So, let me draws a quick comparison of how Engine Boost version works:
  1. Move to Navigation.
  2. Steer while Engine Boosting, use ping.
... That's it. No throttle change, no back and forth across the entire ship three times to move between consoles, no spam clicking to alter energy, no. On top of being very energy efficient, it becomes extremely dumbed down. It's supposed to be a team game, yet one person can so easily run the bridge all of a sudden in the scenario of a getaway, all from one console.

No other upgrade does anything like this. If anything, upgrades force the other consoles to come into greater need than before, making you need to man more stations. (I.E. Achieving a power transfer upgrade may force you to use science console more often than before.) At the very least, having resources available to you should mean you're utilizing more of the ship, not less.

If I'm the only person who feels that way, then fair enough.


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Boost
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:30 pm 
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Whyte_Dragon wrote:
True, there are ways of spotting the BC in the FoW. You could SS scout, use radar, or even launch a predator missile. But I'm still worried about the limited range of a BC's normal shot. Even without FoW, I thought the laser still dissipates as normal about 0.5 the length of BC sight out into the FoW. So, in a sense, you still do have to catch up close enough to your opponent to fire at them, even if it is longer than the 'BC sight.' Even if you have a good firing range, you can't shoot halfway across the map.

But again, I think you're not understanding my main issue with this LordDragon. I get this is an upgrade, a particularly hefty one, but the actual speed boost you get from it isn't my main concern. Normally, here are the steps you'd need to go through if you wanted to make a getaway from the enemy if you were one person, all this assuming the enemy isn't willing to expend large amounts of energy on the engine. (We're drawing a comparison to Engine Boost vs. No Engine Boost after all.)
  1. (OPT) Move to Navigation.
  2. (OPT) Confirm throttle is on full on the BC if you haven't already.
  3. Move to Power Management.
  4. Up power on Engine for about 5-15 seconds depending on degree.
  5. Return to navigation.
  6. Steer away from the enemy as best as possible while pinging.
  7. Return to Power Management.
  8. Reduce Engine Power for about 2-15 seconds, depending on degree.
  9. Return to navigation.
  10. Continue steering and pinging.
After 6 becomes optional, but considering the possible power drain you'd probably end up back on power management anyways. So, let me draws a quick comparison of how Engine Boost version works:
  1. Move to Navigation.
  2. Steer while Engine Boosting, use ping.
... That's it. No throttle change, no back and forth across the entire ship three times to move between consoles, no spam clicking to alter energy, no. On top of being very energy efficient, it becomes extremely dumbed down. It's supposed to be a team game, yet one person can so easily run the bridge all of a sudden in the scenario of a getaway, all from one console.

No other upgrade does anything like this. If anything, upgrades force the other consoles to come into greater need than before, making you need to man more stations. (I.E. Achieving a power transfer upgrade may force you to use science console more often than before.) At the very least, having resources available to you should mean you're utilizing more of the ship, not less.

If I'm the only person who feels that way, then fair enough.


Okay, lets be clear here, engine boost with 0 GW to engines is crappy and you won't get away, it's only like 65 m/s speed for 10 seconds. It is very affected by the amount of engine power you have going. You still absolutely need someone on power if you want to escape.

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 Post subject: Re: Engine Boost
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:47 pm 
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Exactly what I was going to say, DumbMarine....not so dumb, are ye?

Quite plainly, if you are the only one on deck you need to set throttle to full and then run to power as you said. Thing is, you stay there. You are now the powerguy, and someone else needs to dock ASAP to man nav. With or without engine boost, it needs to happen or you get boned by the team who has 3 or more people onboard hunting you.

I suppose the exception is that if you do have boost, you can use it before running for power, and again if nobody shows up to man nav. Still, as you said, it is a team game. Soloing the BC should only be happening early game; it isnt an effective fight or flight strategy unless you have some serious experience.


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Boost
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:13 pm 
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From my experience it's 70+BCms, but perhaps I'm wrong in that regard. However, I've easily used Engine Boost as a method of simply skipping a bit closer to the Kermite field as a method of protection with barley any effort at all. Literally press a button every 40 seconds and I'm there before I end up knowing it, and I never even once have to touch engine power. So I don't think it's quite as dependent on engine power as you might suggest.

Anyways, yes. If you do nothing but a single engine boost it's very possible for another team to catch up to you by putting in a bunch of power to their own engines and keep going. And please remember we are assuming the other team does not have engine boost. So, lets assume the other team has X00gw/s in their engines and make a modified list of actions.
  1. Head to navigation.
  2. Hit Engine Boost and steer away. You current have roughly x2 their speed, so you should be able to at least make some decent distance.
  3. While Engine Boost is running itself, head to energy.
  4. Boost engines to (X-1)00gw/s. (By estimate.)
  5. Head to navigation.
    Thereafter, ping the map consistently and judge thereafter. Still incredibly simple by comparison to the 'none-engine boost' example.
  6. Alternatively, you could simply boost shields and prepare for combat.
No, I don't think people will simply 'give up the chase' after one little boost. But after the expenditure of how much energy? I don't think one person will be able to outrun a BC manned by three forever, but certainly I DO believe Engine Boost will often provide the time necessary to organize a proper set up IF they do keep chasing.

If you think I'm wrong, please, by all means attempt to start making ambushes on high level games without the use of Engine Boost while your opponent has teched it. It is of my opinion that it will force a significant drain on your energy and will show in your available power during combat when you catch up.

Also, I don't think it necessarily requires 'serious experience' either. It was something I was able to do at about by 25th game.


Last edited by WhyteDragon on Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Engine Boost
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:27 pm 
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For the record, in higher level games engine power range from 300-550 GW. At 550 GW you move faster than a ship running on engine boost with 0 GW engines. I don't see engine boost as teamwork-killing for this reason.

I have no problem with BC using engine boost to escape. I mean, if you couldn't do that, what would be the point of engine boost? The problem IMO is when it's used to move the BC more cheaply than using the BC's regular engines, especially out of combat. I mean, from a realism standpoint, engine boost is dramatically overclocking the engine acceleration. How is that BETTER than just using the engine properly? Otherwise, why not remove the engines, slap 4 engine boosters on the BC, and use boost only to move the BC? Massively better ship.

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