Cruiser Command

Cruiser command is a cooperative map between two teams. Simply put, each team controls one battlecruiser and the goal is to kill the opponent's battlecruiser.


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Boost
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:50 am 
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I'm going to rather blunt here.

There are SEVERAL upgrades which could be considered 'make or break' in the game of Cruiser Command:

Broadsides
Fusion Core
Hardened Shielding (at least lvl1)
Burst Upgrade (at least tripple)
Weapon Tier Research (laser up OR kinetic, I prefer having both max'd though)
Engine Boost
Economy (mining laser OR chomper w/upgrades - again, I prefer both)


My point is this:

Yes, the engine boost gives a severe advantage in terms of mobility when one team has it and the other doesn't. However, if we are to look at any engagement in terms of BALANCE (which I believe this is meant to address) we must assume that each team is on equal footing. At the very least we assume an equal mineral count, and then begin variation through upgrade path.

In other words, if Team 1 has ALL upgrades, Team 2 is assumed to have them as well. If Team2 is missing Engine Boost, we must assume that Team 1 is missing something of roughly that value- - Broadsides and that last chomper in the powerdock for instance.

I'll put it another way:


I've had games where I was literally toying with the opponent. I usually wind up taking the helm, teaching, commanding...that sort of thing. When I have a great team, I get to do that evil thing I do in a wraith. Translation: the opponent has 0 econ. Effect: We mined every damn rock that ever was, and even had a few extra fields spawn as we played our cat-n-mouse style torture. Evil? Absolutely. Fun? Bet your ass...

Anyway, I always end up deciding to end the game when I literally cant spend minerals on ANYTHING else. But wouldn't you know...I always wind up poor and mineral-less before I've bought all that could be desired. No more rocks to mine...I suppose we could mass replicate some more...nah, just end it!

How many games are you going to deny 90% or more of the available minerals to your opponent? It's pretty rare, even with highly stacked teams.

Bottom line:

Engine boost is only one of several upgrades that you'll be wishing you had if the enemy has them and you dont; and minerals are already in short enough supply to begin throwing them into the engine compartment.

Solution:

An overhaul of the ability could be in order. Make it a toggle ability perhaps, which in effect makes a link between navigation and power. Activating the ability immediately adds Xgw (100?500? 1000?!) to Engine Power, draining it from Main Capacitor. Engine Power reverts to its previous value when the ability deactivates....I don't like it though because it once more adds importance to the nav. console while diminishing the importance of running to power.

Increase cost of boost? Perhaps, but then it may become more efficient to pump power to engines and run the old-fashioned way.

Truth be told, I don't have a perfect answer. Honestly, I didn't see much of a problem - - like I said, try fighting with boost and no broadsides...


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Boost
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:02 am 
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i actually love the idea of having it as a toggle skill. it would add more complication to navigation and power coordination but how about making engine boost sap energy or core stability or even both as its active? similar to how cloaking a unit sucks initial energy then energy per second. This would make it available more often and would enhance sudden maneuverability but if it eats the core up seeing as its such a huge overhaul on engines it would make sense to not only suck up lots of power but to damage the core while its in effect, lots of sci fi based movies games etc have had warping or boosting effect the core of the ship if used too long. This would make the boosting not last all game but rather short boosts, if you over use it your a sitting duck. Not to mention the hull damage while i think if increased a bit would turn players away from boosting so often, seeing as it kills your ship.

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 Post subject: Re: Engine Boost
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:13 am 
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Dammit Tempest...you would. I said I DIDN'T like the idea...Yes, I know I proposed it, and it makes great amount of sense from a schematic/technical standpoint, but I really don't want :

A) More power placed in the navigator console
B) Anyone able to play with power from nav when I'm on the Power Console.

Regardless, I've given my thoughts and then some. I'll let you all wrestle for a while and see what the final verdict is later ;p


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Boost
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:22 am 
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there might be a better way to manage the idea, but i think engine boost SHOULD be a toggle skill not a skill cooldown :o then again if you get a new player on it he can sap your energy at his own will, or a griefer. That sucks -.- would be so awesome.

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 Post subject: Re: Engine Boost
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:33 am 
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I still don't agree with the hull issue since most games will come out in a situation where the hull difference is exceedingly large. It comes down to energy most of the time, which some people either lack or have excess of by comparison. I don't feel as if 'hull damage' is a large penalty to most players...

The point was 'initial restriction' originally. It was still meant to be spammable at the end game, since I didn't want to tinker with the game play TOO much.

However, I can see the points you're all putting across... especially Lord Dragon, but I feel like that's such a boring format. "If one team has the upgrade, the other one should?" That implies a static build order with no ounce of variability. That just feels... boring. Shouldn't the game strive to promote ingenuity, strange builds and strategies, rather than 'who econs the best and gets these upgrades first?'

So on that note, I'd like to offer a few alternatives then:
  • 1) (As Mentioned) Make Engine Boost toggle, so that it comes a bit more energy than it normally would for an 'instant speed change.' The obvious issue behind this is that experienced players can typically just energy manage engines just fine. It purely becomes a 'navigatgor call.' I don't feel this represents the point of engine boost anymore.
  • 2) (As Mentioned) Increase energy cost. I don't feel like this solves the issue either, but it definitely comes a step closer than 1) in my opinion.
  • 3) Have Engine Boosting make a hit to your core. I think this is one of the more appealing solutions since it remains an 'energy resource,' while still putting reluctantly upon its use.
  • 4) A temporary engine stop halt post usage. Literally a 'jump getaway' which serves little more than to make time, (I.E. to boost shields, alter energy management, clear up some debris in the way) and then halts all engine activity post usage until the cool down comes off lets say.

I still think alterations should be made. I just want to point out possibilities and ideas.


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Boost
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:44 pm 
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I agree with Glarion that the nav console should be a little less important. So this may seem weird, but I think boost should remain as powerful as it is, or perhaps even buff it / make it cheaper to research, but move it to the science console. Promotes teamwork more and balances the importance of stations. If this is unacceptable then I think it should have a core / hull cost tacked on.

EDIT: And this balances the boost a little because right now the science console isn't used too much. And maybe it should have a cast time too...


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Boost
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:01 pm 
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i support the idea of having engine boost stall you out as it charges, it would change the concept of the skill for the better and it wouldn't be viable for retreats all game long

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 Post subject: Re: Engine Boost
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:02 pm 
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glarions gonna hate the idea of having navigation have the ability to cancel out GW to engines though :p

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 Post subject: Re: Engine Boost
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:22 pm 
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Capricis wrote:
I agree with Glarion that the nav console should be a little less important. So this may seem weird, but I think boost should remain as powerful as it is, or perhaps even buff it / make it cheaper to research, but move it to the science console. Promotes teamwork more and balances the importance of stations. If this is unacceptable then I think it should have a core / hull cost tacked on.

EDIT: And this balances the boost a little because right now the science console isn't used too much. And maybe it should have a cast time too...

The cast time might be nice to add in, but won't change much. Still, considering the nature of Engine Boost I do think a small cast time could be in order.

As for moving Engine Boost to the console, I do like the idea personally. It does go a way into helping solve the issue -- however, the science console is also directly adjacent to the weapons console, and if you've already committed yourself to running it won't really put that much of a hamper on your ship macro to simply get Heavy Weapons Guy to switch to Engineer for the boost. Especially when you draw the comparison of walking from Nav to Energy Console. It's an ability you can press once every 40 seconds in order to operate, you don't even have to stay the 10 seconds that the Engine Boost is operating. So even if you change the console it operates off of, it's kind of hard to say it'll fix it still IMO.

In short, good concept. I just don't think it solves the issue I personally have with Engine Boost, but hell. We're all just throwing out ideas without guarantee they'll be looked at, so it's not as if I can say my opinion is superior. :P


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Boost
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:11 pm 
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I can safely say, from being a part of this community for a rather long time, that our ideas will most certainly be looked at and taken into consideration. Final decisions are made by the map maker, and I believe him to be an impartial and logical judge.

I would also like to state that I disagree with moving the Engine Boost ability away from navigation - it makes sense to have an 'Overdrive' button sitting next to the main throttle controls.
I'm of the opinion that the Science console could use some more usage, but so far everything there seems to belong there. Placement of the console is questionable -- it's certainly convenient, but I envision the abilities that come with the console to be more fitting of the area above Construction: what appears to be an extension of the main core. Replacing Kermaculite used in the fusion process (Purge ability), converting mass into energy for Yamato Cannon, and firing a small burst from the core itself (energy transfer(s)) all make sense. Maybe IF we did add the mineral cost to using the Engine Boost (again, I'm very much against that idea), it would be fitting to be found at Science -- another Mass to Energy conversion.

If anything, I do agree with the cast-time idea. Logically, the engines could take a moment to warm up before propelling the BC at such high velocity.

Since this sub-forum and thread are meant to be 'Balance Discussion,' I'd like to pose a question:

How is Engine Boost out of balance with other abilities and why? Take into consideration research cost, activation cost, and opportunity-cost (what DIDN'T you get so you could get this ability).


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